Log in

No account? Create an account
Martin's Law - Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]

[ userinfo | livejournal userinfo ]
[ archive | journal archive ]

Martin's Law [Feb. 10th, 2011|12:12 am]

One of the great success stories of Netiquette has been the near-elimination of the argumentum ad hitlerum from serious debate through the use of Godwin's Law. This is pretty much the online equivalent of eradicating smallpox, and just as surprising.

I think there are three reasons Godwin's Law has been successful. The first two are that it's easy to apply and necessary. It's hard to tell if something is an argumentum ad hominem (aka "personal attack") or a legitimate challenge to someone's credentials or style, and some level of argumentum ad hominem is almost necessary when confronting trolls. But argumentum ad hitlerums are always obvious and rarely good.

The third reason for its success is that it's funny. Before everyone and their brother had heard of Godwin's Law, you could always get a laugh and look particularly witty by bringing it up if an opponent made a Nazi analogy. There was every incentive for people to spread it across the internet.

I think the more Godwin's Law type norms we spread, the better. So I would like to publicize one I found recently that I really, really like. It's called the argumentum ad cellarium. According to RationalWiki:
An argumentum ad cellarium is a variety of ad hominem attack sometimes found in debates and comments on the internet. The argument is used to dismiss someone or their views by accusing them of lacking in the usual social and living skills that society expects, and thus being forced to resort to living in their parents' basement.

I see this a whole lot more than Nazi analogies nowadays, and it ticks the same boxes of being offensive, symptomatic of poor debate, and almost inevitably derailing the argument in which it occurs.

I propose two new laws. First, and named after the user who wrote the argumentum ad cellarium article, Martin's Law: If during an online argument anyone accuses their interlocutor of living in their parents' basement, the argument is over and the accuser has lost.

Second, Martin's Law, Reflexive Corollary: If during an online argument anyone accuses their interlocutor of living in their parents' basement, the accuser has identified themselves as exactly the sort of internet troll who may well live in their parents' basement.

Conjectures that a person doesn't have a girlfriend, doesn't shower, or has acne - based solely on the position they take in an argument - are all variants of the argumentum ad cellarium and Martin's Law should equally apply.

[User Picture]From: ice_hesitant
2011-02-10 12:51 am (UTC)
I think you just frequent the better sort of websites. I see far too much of ad hitlerum around in newspaper comment sections and their kin.

Granted, you may ignoring those on the grounds of them not being a place for the serious variety of debate.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: gryphonavocatio
2011-02-10 02:35 am (UTC)
Surely you have seen these:



It's a shame such a law as Godwin's does not apply to other media. It just makes everybody look pathetic. Well, The Daily Show makes it look ridiculous, but maybe that's just the same.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2011-02-10 02:49 am (UTC)
Actually, what I have most seen is people using Godwin's Law as a way to evade perfectly valid counterexamples. Someone says it must be right, it's legal, someone else says the Holocaust was legal, and the first person doesn't have to abandon his statement, he can just have vapors instead.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: ciphergoth
2011-02-10 09:04 am (UTC)
Even then, I'd say don't go there if you can possibly reach for another example. If you're comparing 9/11 to the Reichstag Fire, say, it's not clear that history abounds with other examples you could have used instead. But "great wrongs perpetrated by states that they made legal before they did" should have many exemplars.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2011-02-10 03:59 pm (UTC)


That matters somewhat less than whether they are, and widely known ones, and inarguable ones.

What do you think should be used instead?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: eyelessgame
2011-02-10 03:37 am (UTC)
I would like to see Godwin's Law extended to cover Stalin, actually. It would be nice, for example, not to have health insurance reform compared to Stalin's gulags.

I think argumentum ad cellarium is properly used to mock, not argue - it is most effectively used to respond to argument along the lines of "I am asserting manly, survivalist Manichean libertarian crap, and anyone who disagrees with me has no idea how the world really works, and anyway is a wuss who I could kill with my bare hands" - such argument really is generally put forth by people with limited, naive, negative experiences of the real world and real society. At its best ad cellarium responses can remind everyone that on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog (i.e. anyone can assert macho manliness, but it doesn't make their argument stronger to do so).

That said, it's obviously overused.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: maniakes
2011-02-10 05:42 am (UTC)
Even when it's used to mock, it shows lack of imagination. It shows ever so much more class to come up with a clever, original way of mocking someone, or even just to dig out a quote or reference to someone else's wit that fits the situation well and is fresh to most of your audience.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2011-02-11 06:45 pm (UTC)

adult amateur

cartoon sex ,, sex tv ,, world sex ,, free sex pics



amateur porn videos
[B]sex party pics[/B]
free ameture porn
sex photo
sex and the city pics
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: jannytruant
2011-02-12 07:29 am (UTC)

Re: adult amateur

You know who made free amature porn? THE NAZIS!
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2011-02-12 01:56 pm (UTC)

Re: adult amateur

Spoken like a true basement-dweller.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: squid314
2011-02-12 01:57 pm (UTC)

Re: adult amateur

I was going to delete that, but now I am forced to keep it up because the response is too perfect. If you are secretly in cahoots with the spambots, then good work.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2011-02-14 10:30 pm (UTC)
Great post. Can’t wait to read the next ones :)
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: totnesmartin
2011-09-13 07:13 pm (UTC)
Fame at last!
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: sophiewilder
2012-08-07 07:22 pm (UTC)
whatever happened to totnesmartin?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-01-11 10:10 pm (UTC)

Further dating

lee si young before and after plastic surgery gay wrestling blog video free downloading of 3gp porn mobile movies zoofilia xxx videos xxx sex video for free indian telugu hardcore movies and videos mallu breast play video men describe how jerking off feels
black wall street wiki adult tv sex tv porn tv sexy sink design delhi public school girl sex scandal video download tranny ass diastasis recti in men free online xxx porn honeymoon games woman birth baby video
arab nakid women old guard republicans barcelona sex project anyone have rip joyangeles poop porn egyptian girls anal full dog porn diabetes symptoms in pregnant women
closeups orgasm sample video woman sex massaggi a messina virgin radio frequence culo vagina peluda lollita girls
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-01 12:16 am (UTC)

Girl tonight

emo dudes porn hermonie naked pest analysis of japan full vintage porn tubes porn animal tube gr menatplay movies porno gay gratis replacement swivel armchair leg immagine sexy melissa satta
sex fд±lmд± ebony bombshells arab incest sex pics perm, short hair pictures valerie bertinelli people magzine pictures milf panty african porn site popular girl names
laura andresan xxx youporn xxx granny japanese used cars from south korea iphone virgin sex punishment birch female ladyboy aum downloads with free desi erotic stories
sex gratis in direct pirates the porn movie little girls pink bits anthony gallo free downloads gay porn men origins wolverine 2009
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-16 10:27 am (UTC)

Date tonight

bbw hub indias maman blonde sex gils video china democracy digital distribution polliana totally naked steve aoki amanda blank spank rock we are rock stars mature oldermen how to beat the helga in phantasy star portable
www.pamela anderson xxx adult tv on line indo jilbab porn mature men masterbating porn for blackbury angelique morgan naked on rock of love spring anime 2009 anal xxx
xxx sexy women free old man sex movies sleeping anal fisting allen youth sports texas legs in stockings pictures english dialogue sex stories after school sex slave club video
russian family nudism watch indian real sex for free free sexy fucking videos of aunties to see online making a blowjob simulator pictures of outdoor spaces
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-21 07:53 am (UTC)

Sex dating

celebrity movies girls pictures of karan kundra how to clean on nose black dot breast sucking free porno videos maplestory drum bunny mini dungeon id boob job paige hemmis nude one piece manga bг¶lгјm 540
pak hidden sex indian food store 95.9 kiss fm taboo charming mother 7 college party themes granny free porno movies xxx porn reality contos de incesto teen
women panties pictures dani woodward video be the mask beautifulgirls xxx movies how i met your mother season 4 episode 16 mininova sex indian mother and son videos anarkali sexy lyrics to heels over head by boys like girls
free videos of women gagging on cum free xxx indian kamasutra honeymoon bedroom videos fucking hindi 3gp video free emo iphone porn sick and disgusting porn
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-25 07:31 am (UTC)

Tonight meeting

cum in cunt porn hub arab .com livecam sex male and female marijuana plants sweet names for girls "randi taylor" facial porn gay women yabatech school of part time studies.
video amateur mamie sexe adsl mpeg i fucked a pornstar lady gaga nude msn adult animated emoticons lesbian cheerleader porn 5k run young life comic ben 10 xxx free male movie naked star
kerala porn actress adult youtube sites what colour attracts guys most giovanna rigato foto sexy kardashian boob slip streaming lil lupe loves hard cock pakistan porn gallery
special threat amateur facial free teen sex 3g tarzan y jane xxx porno online free software downloads bear share cgi proxy invisible for school
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-06 03:38 pm (UTC)

Go out with tonight

ideas of sex moves russian lollitas young blogspot alice chains 1995 rapidshare sex indian movies online watch full xxx big cook gay scat gorilla zoe song with girl watch free online pron gallery mature lesbiens free
naked hijab girls wax ring installation black market minerals never shaved pussys save your pictures to a safe website milf giving hand job lois griffin sexy ass xxx adult fuck games
porn new web free videos other boleyn girl french jamie lynn spears pussy disneychannel asia com thai advertising can you get pregnant while breast feeding free online bleach porn
new school notes kamasutra de dragon ball en porno kajsa-lotta anal free 3d rikku fuck video girl masturbating for boyfriend on video
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-01 03:53 pm (UTC)

Union dating

careers for asian studies major free porn yang girls rough fuck stories paki porn vedio free sex videos on the computer books sports poems 69 camaro rs z28 pictures tube8 russian girl
rosario x vampire anime why like sunny blue skies kds porn when asian markets are up us markets black grils .com pictures of ultracet new york state school board member responsibilities big mature ass
(Reply) (Thread)