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♫ Valjean - at last - we see each other plain ♫ [Jan. 12th, 2013|05:12 am]
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[Spoiler Warning | Minor spoilers for Les Miserables.]

I'm stuck for a couple of days just outside New City, New York. Trying to figure out if the mayor is named Mayor SimMayor, no luck as of yet.

Speaking of mayors with repetitive-sounding names, I finally got a chance to see the Les Miserables movie tonight with my cousin.

I did not dislike Jean Valjean's voice as much as most other people. I did dislike Marius' voice more than most other people, and wondered the whole time whether he was stoically filming a musical despite having a terrible head cold.

I thought Javert had a very good voice, but I was disappointed with his character overall. I feel like the actor who played him is probably a nice person in real life. He gave off a friendly, avuncular vibe. This is not the vibe one wants Inspector Javert to have. Worse, every time he made an on screen appearance, he was screwing up in some way - falsely accusing the wrong person, falsely accusing himself of falsely accusing the wrong person, or just letting Valjean get away. He pretty quickly picked up a bumbling cop vibe, a sort of 19th-century French Chief Wiggum. "I am the law, and the law is not mocked." Sorry. This Javert totally can be mocked.

Not that I would want to mock him. He looks so sad. If I met him I would just want to give him a hug.

Fantine was a great actress and a great singer. Both Cosettes were great actresses and very pretty, although adult Cosette sort of seemed too pretty, like she was a doll who sat around being pretty but not really having a part of her own. I liked little Cosette better. And speaking of little, obviously Gavroche stole the show.

Despite some of the problems, the overall film was very good and gave me exactly the emotional effect I would expect to get from Les Miserables. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Afterwards I went to dinner with my cousin, who had no previous familiarity with the story. She said "I really liked the movie, except for that one part where Jean Valjean spares Inspector Javert's life. Javert straight out said he wasn't going to change. Sparing him was just dumb." And I can sort of sympathize, but...

I fell in love with Les Miserables via the soundtrack, from the first time I actually understood what was going on in the scene with the bishop and his silver (which was not the first time I listened to that song).

One of the classic philosophical questions goes: "Is evil merely the absence of good?" Strip the religious baggage and you could equally well ask "Is good merely the absence of evil?" I think I used to be sympathetic to this second question. If you don't cheat on any tests, don't harm any other people, don't contribute to the destruction of the planet, and otherwise avoid evil, you are...well, further toward being a good person than most people ever manage.

Giving to charity does better, but when I give to charity it has always been out of a sort of guilt motive, the realization that I have so much and other people have so little and that unless I am very selfish indeed, I really ought to give a little of it to them. Someone who gives a lot of money to charity is avoiding evil - particularly greed and selfishness - even better than someone who just doesn't cheat on tests, but it still seemed to me just a more advanced extension of being non-evil.

That bishop had every excuse in the world to turn Valjean over to the police. No one would have called him evil for it; he would not have had to feel a second's guilt. On an emotional level - I'm not trying to make a philosophical case here, because I know that you can spin this one to non-evil too - but on an emotional level that was what first opened up this vast chasm between "non-evil" and "good" to me.

And then later in the story, when Valjean risked his own life to save Javert, that was another example. Now Les Miserables is at two examples of this goodness-beyond-non-evil that I had never recognized so much as even one example of it before.

Believing that goodness is something other than non-evil has been comforting to me. Once I recognized goodness - Plato would say "apprehended its form" - I got a little more motivation from my desire to be good than I had from my previous desire just to avoid evil. There have even been some times when it has changed my behavior, just a little.

There was one time I was with my grandmother, who loves to spoil me. I was buying something, probably a book, and she really wanted to pay for it as a gift to me. Usually in this situation I say no and buy it myself - I like being independent and not feeling any obligation to anyone else. This would have been the non-evil thing to do. It would have made me look like a good person, satisfied my social obligations, and made me an exemplar of various oft-respected virtues. Instead I gave in and let her buy me the book, which made her very happy - and saved her an argument in which I made her feel like I was doing her a favor by "allowing" her.

I know that as a sign of my moral progress, "I let someone else buy me something I wanted" is super unimpressive. But that's sort of the point. Anything that looks like an impressive sign of morality doesn't count as this weird Valjean-level super-moral skill. If it looked like an impressive sign of morality, it would be satisfying some moral obligation and it would just be non-evil. My own still-feeble abilities to understand good-beyond-nonevil sound (and are) silly. Valjean's is an expert at this skill even in his most important life decisions, and so he looks stupid, at least to my cousin.

I think there might be a corresponding epistemic skill, a correctness as opposed to being very good at avoiding error, a correctness-beyond-the-level-of-obligation. It is being correct even when you have complete social sanction to be incorrect, even when it makes you look stupid to everyone else. I am not yet very skilled in this area either, but I am feeling pretty good about myself for recognizing it exists.

[User Picture]From: widgetfox
2013-01-12 11:20 am (UTC)
In my experience, the epitome of this is usually experienced through keeping my mouth shut and not saying the thing I wanted to say that would have made me right, witty, superior, understood etc. - but always at someone else's expense. My best deed are almost invariably the ones I did not do.
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[User Picture]From: squid314
2013-01-12 11:21 am (UTC)
Yes, I agree that's the same thing. It's not just sacrificing your money or power or life for The Good, it's sacrificing your pride.
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[User Picture]From: widgetfox
2013-01-12 03:27 pm (UTC)
For me it is about really trying to put other people's interests and their best good ahead of my own, I think. Not my idea of what they ought to do or feel or be like but what will really make things better for them, but their genuine good. This definitely covers Valjean, and I think it covers the Bishop, although I could be talked out of the latter.
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From: (Anonymous)
2013-01-12 12:43 pm (UTC)
I'm glad that the Bishop's actions were one of the things you focused on. I'm sure others find it interesting and powerful, too. All the potency of the revolutionary blah-blah, the love story, Valjean's death and confession really don't exercise the same emotional grip on me as that moment, very early in the musical (and film, and presumably book, though I don't know how closely the musical followed the book). Perhaps because, in the musical anyway, he strikes me as a noble no-one: noble both in terms of his status in society and his actions, vital yet so incidental. This reflects something about real life - perhaps urban life, where we find ourselves so beset by anonymity. In the Metro (London's free newspaper) a section called the 'Good Deed Feed' lists a selection of expressions of thanks by public transport users to random people who helped them out - "Thank you to the bald man with the parrot on his shoulder who helped me out of the train tracks just before the 1445 to Waterloo squished me". Some of the most important kindnesses I have experienced have come from total strangers who owe me nothing but de minimis respect as a human being, legally or morally, which does not extend to having any real concern for my welfare.
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From: michaelvassar
2013-01-12 01:30 pm (UTC)


It seems to me that this is the core skill that a 'go' player must demonstrate in order to graduate from tactical excellence to strategic excellence and fully take advantage of the richness that the full scale board offers. Taking it beyond 'go' is a further challenge, but I think achievable.
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[User Picture]From: celandine13
2013-01-12 01:44 pm (UTC)
I've gotten lost on the way to good and evil. But there is sort of a difference I can detect, that is the difference between satisfying social and cultural obligations, on the one hand, and on the other hand, following a rubric -- any rubric -- with consistency enough that you don't have to be told which particular actions to take, you'll just spontaneously and independently act in accordance with that rubric.

Sometimes I see this in intellectual correctness. Sometimes I've had an unvoiced sense that an idea is unpretty, that it's not quite clean, but it's at a level subtle and vague enough that I'm not ready to shout "That's wrong!" And then afterwards somebody smarter vindicates me, and I realize "Oh, that's what it felt like to have an intellectual perception with no social validation."
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[User Picture]From: nancylebov
2013-01-12 02:16 pm (UTC)
There's an Ayn Rand quote to the effect that people can't live on the bad things that don't happen.

Of course, you need firefighters and other people who prevent bad things, but the houses still need to be built before they can be defended.

In moral terms, does it make sense for Jean Valjean to save Javert?
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From: danarmak
2013-01-12 03:42 pm (UTC)
Remember we know in retrospect that Javert then killed himself. But Valjean had no reason to expect that. On the contrary, he would have expected that Javert would go on to harm many other people in his zealous application of cruel laws.

Valjean saving Javert had more the effect of making himself look Good, than of bringing Good to others in the world.
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From: deiseach
2013-01-12 04:24 pm (UTC)
That's Javert's reasoning right there. Your previous actions always and inevitably forecast your future actions. You cannot change. There is no point in second chances, mercy, or hope because you have shown yourself to be such a person (that breaks the law/that follows the letter and not the spirit of the law) and so you will always be that person.

You cannot learn from the example of others, you cannot come to see your own flaws. So you broke the law by stealing bread - it does not matter that it was to feed a hungry child, it was theft and theft is a crime. You must be imprisoned. If you escape, you must return to serve out your sentence. It does not matter if you were unjustly imprisoned (isn't that the attitude of Tommy Lee Jones as the Marshall in "The Fugitive"? It's not his job to decide who's guilty, that's for the courts; his job is just to bring the accused in) or if you were imprisoned 'fairly' but under unjust laws.

And so - by this reasoning - the bishop should have turned in Valjean when he committed a 'real' crime in stealing the silver. No excuse about orphan children there! A hardened convict re-offends and goes back to his old tricks. That would have been Javert's justification: no expectation of change, but rather going on to harm others by stealing and probably sinking lower and lower in the level of harm he did; from theft because of hunger to stealing from someone who helped you to robbery with violence and ending up probably with murdering someone in a mugging or burglary.

That was Javert's experience of criminals and his expectation. Not that change could be or was possible, but that wind up the clockwork mechanism of human nature, and watch it go in the same old ruts.

So Valjean in turn should not, by your analysis, have shared the mercy shown to him by showing mercy to another who seemed irredeemable as he was judged irredeemable.
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From: danarmak
2013-01-12 04:39 pm (UTC)
It's not that people cannot change. It's that they are unlikely to change. They stay the same more often than not. And Javert had no reason or impetus to change that would have been apparent to Valjean.

After that, it's just a matter of shutting up and multiplying.

As for the Bishop, he should have calculated the expected value of Valjean being free - to himself plus to others - and then if he decided that expected value was negative, he should have taken the opportunity to turn him in. Not because stealing the silver was in itself cause to punish him, but because it provided an opportunity to prevent him from committing expected future crimes.

You praise the Bishop for giving Valjean a second chance. But *if* the expected outcome was that in *most* such cases, the person given a second chance would go on to commit more crimes, then we should condemn the Bishop for not turning in such offenders.

There's a confounding issue here: that Valjean was originally sentenced for stealing bread in a case we take today to be both unjust (he was stealing to feed a child) and disproportionate (years of hard labour for stealing bread). But we are not discussing the morality of that sentencing, or the morality of Javert in trying to hold Valjean to his parole. We are discussing the expected outcome of the Bishop not turning him in.

The Bishop would have asked himself: if this man never committed a moral wrong to begin with, and was wrongfully sentenced, how likely is it he will reoffend in truly harmful (not merely illegal) ways now that he has been hardened by a life in prison?

By consequentialist morals, he should have been guided by that evaluation. By deontological (classical Christian) morals, he should have been merciful to Valjean even if that meant being unmerciful to Valjeans potential future victims. It should be clear what side I take.
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From: (Anonymous)
2013-01-12 05:41 pm (UTC)
I would agree that, absent some event that compels someone to change, people are unlikely to change. However, people do change in response to powerful events, and I think you are underestimating the fact that extremely merciful actions are themselves capable of constituting such events. As such, I am not sure that looking only at the past conduct is sufficient without also calculating in the likelihood that the merciful action will motivate the person to change.

After all, the bishop did not even know that Valjean was sentenced unjustly. Even if Valjean had told him, there would be a strong possibility that he lied as he was plainly dishonest; after Valjean showed him kindness and gave him food and a place to sleep, Valjean stole everything of value that the bishop owned. As such, if all he could look at was what he knew of past conduct, a utilitarian calculation would almost certainly support turning him in and compounding the injustice that Valjean had already suffered.

Similarly, I think that Valjean would have been entitled to consider that when releasing Javert, even if it was a risk. As against the morality of killing Javert, releasing him was almost certainly the more moral choice. Besides, aside from this one incident with Valjean, Javert likely did more harm than good since many of the criminal laws were probably just.

That might be wrong. I am not utilitarian.
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From: danarmak
2013-01-12 08:46 pm (UTC)
Your extraordinary claim that extremely merciful acts cause people to become extremely merciful themselves is in need of extraordinary proof if I am to believe it.

The story of Les Miserables is about extraordinary people and events. If the behavior of Valjean in response to the Bishop's kindness was common and predictable, it wouldn't have made such a great story, and Valjean wouldn't be an inspiring hero. And that's precisely why we should not emulate him in real life.

Pick any real-life villain who was eventually taken down. If he had been shown unusual mercy and released instead, what is your estimate that he would have become reformed due to that?
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From: (Anonymous)
2013-01-12 11:30 pm (UTC)
This is the same Anonymous. I apologize for length.

I don't think it is an extraordinary claim. It hardly seems unnatural that a person should look up to or emulate someone who has done them an extraordinary kindness. In my own life, I tend to have a great respect for people who have been kind to me. Similarly, I don't think it extraordinary that being shown kindness will help you empathize with the other person and thus better understand the harm you've caused them.

Plainly your own experience is different, but if it's true that people can change in response to merciful acts, then it is hard to imagine how it could be demonstrated except anecdotally. Since anecdotal evidence is as consistent with your hypothesis that only extraordinary people respond positively to extraordinary mercy, I doubt that there is any proof that could rise to the level you demand.

Therefore, a speculative exercise on any real-life villain would not have any probative value. However, I'll admit that my estimate would generally be low, and, where all I know of the person is that he or she caused great harm (such as: he murdered someone), I would not deem its possibility sufficient to justify any unconditional release, particularly where our justice system is fair.

However, I think we have to look at the actual choice being made by Valjean. I assume we both accept that most people ought not to be murdered. Therefore, if we are to kill someone, the evidence would need to be sufficient to rebut that presumption. All that Valjean really knows about Javert is that he's an extremely dogged champion of the law, submitting criminals to sometimes unjust punishments. Although that has been extremely inconvenient for Valjean, most criminal offences are at least somewhat necessary to protect people (for instance, laws against murder, torture, assault, etc.), even if the punishments are unjust. I don't think Valjean had sufficient evidence in that case to rebut the presumption against murder, and his only other meaningful choice was release.

That said, I'll be honest and admit that is not the same argument I was making above. While I still believe that extraordinary mercy can act as a catalyst for change, I agree with you that it generally would not be sufficient to justify the risk of future harm unless either the prior harm is minimal or the alternative is vastly disproportionate to the harm (ie. lifetime of slavery for stealing my silverware).
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From: danarmak
2013-01-13 01:14 am (UTC)
I'm glad you agree with me!

Regarding Javert, Valjean did not merely free him: he also told him where he lived. He expected to be arrested - which would also greatly harm Cosette, in whose interest he had gone to the barricades to save Marius in the first place. And also Javert could testify that the men at the barricade - Marius and the others - were there, which would carry a death penalty. And there's no reason to suppose he wouldn't want to do so, since he had infiltrated the barricade in the first place. This is all apart from Javert enforcing the law, which any other officer could do in his place.

That's why it seems to me like some kind of moral grandstanding, taking mercifulness to an extreme even when he expects it to hurt others.
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[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2013-01-13 11:07 pm (UTC)
"Your extraordinary claim that extremely merciful acts cause people to become extremely merciful themselves is in need of extraordinary proof if I am to believe it."

I don't think that claim was made. The claim was that extraordinary merciful acts may cause people to change, period; changing Javert to have any mercy, or diverting a criminal to a more normal life, are sufficient, no need to invoke change into extreme mercy themselves.
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From: danarmak
2013-01-14 08:20 am (UTC)
We are weighing a positive but unlikely outcome (recipients of mercy improve their ways), against a negative likely outcome (they go on to commit more crimes and so we should have put them back in prison). Since the positive outcome is acknowledged to be rare, to win out it must be very good indeed when it does occur.
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From: (Anonymous)
2013-01-12 05:42 pm (UTC)
Sorry, that should hve been "... after the bishop had shown him kindness ..."
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[User Picture]From: tremensdelirium
2013-01-12 05:09 pm (UTC)
I thought Javert had a very good voice

I'm surprised; what seemed good about it to you?

To me it wasn't distractingly bad, but lacked strength andresonance.
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[User Picture]From: dpolicar
2013-01-12 05:29 pm (UTC)
"All right then, I'll go to Hell."
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[User Picture]From: houseboatonstyx
2013-01-12 11:01 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: arundelo
2013-01-12 07:48 pm (UTC)

the scene with the bishop and his silver

I've only read the whole book once but this scene ("It is your soul that I buy from you") and the scene where Valjean/Madeleine lifts the cart off of Fauchelevent are favorites of mine that I sometimes re-read.

adult Cosette sort of seemed too pretty

Amanda Seyfried is one of those people that I suspect of being an alien, because she's too beautiful for a human. (On the other hand Anne Hathaway is the cast member I have a celebrity crush on.)</oversharing>

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From: cronodas
2013-01-13 05:58 am (UTC)
Strip the religious baggage and you could equally well ask "Is good merely the absence of evil?" I think I used to be sympathetic to this second question. If you don't cheat on any tests, don't harm any other people, don't contribute to the destruction of the planet, and otherwise avoid evil, you are...well, further toward being a good person than most people ever manage.

I'm reminded of something Bruce Sterling said in a speech:

You’re saying: I’m going to do something morally worthwhile that’ll make me feel proud of myself. But does your dead great-grandfather do a better job of it than you?

Edited at 2013-01-13 05:59 am (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: 17catherines
2013-01-13 11:32 am (UTC)
Yes, Russel Crowe's Javert looked way too cuddly and teddy-bearish - quite distracting! I always pictured him as having that lean, ascetic look, to go with his utterly rigid and merciless morality. And I honestly cannot imagine Javert (either as conceived by Hugo or in the original musical) pinning his medal onto Gavroche! He may be a child, but he's a rebel, and people just did not see childhood in quite the same light we do back in 1830.

(Javert has always been my secret favourite character - there's something compelling and tragic about someone who is that utterly consistent in his logic and morality. To me, it isn't just Valjean's act of mercy that leads to his suicide - it's the fact that he can't bring himself to carry through his threat to kill Valjean when he refuses to be arrested coming out of the sewers. Not only has Valjean spared him, he has caused him to act against his view of what is moral and just, and that is what he finally cannot live with.)
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[User Picture]From: oscredwin
2013-01-13 10:18 pm (UTC)
After watching the movie and listening to the sound track (including songs like "Dog eat Dog") I'm seeing that there are three tiers of morality here. DnD helps with this framework.

The innkeeper is Evil, he sets out to harm people and profit thereby. In the movie he steals glass eyes and anything he can get his hands on. He needs to be stopped.

Javert is Neutral, he wants to enforce the law and he will slap down anyone who's violated social conventions or law. His existence is important because he keeps people like the innkeeper from ruining society. He also does things like slap down Valjon even though he has been doing good deeds for years.

Valjon and the Bishop are good. They do kind acts with no concern except that the acts help people. Adopting an orphan is something that makes you look like a good person, avoiding killing Javert is a good act that makes him look stupid. All he cares about are that the acts help people.

I have been thinking about this as part of a broader historic framework that I don't feel like writing right now.
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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-01 10:46 am (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-02 10:32 am (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-02 02:30 pm (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-03 10:39 am (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-04 07:04 pm (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-05 12:45 pm (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous)
2013-04-09 11:25 am (UTC)

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