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Your momma's so perspicacious, she probably thinks this title is about her [Nov. 28th, 2012|05:48 pm]
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[Trigger Warnings | Paedophilia, rape, frank discussion of the prophet Mohammed, mohammed discussion of the prophet Frank]

[Epistemic Status | I feel offended and don't know why; I intuitively feel justified but am not sure the reasons I give are at all correct.]


Chris Hallquist on Uncredible Hallq recently made a post titled "Does This Cartoon Offend You?", which I will not link to, because it - surprise! - contains a cartoon which may offend you. If you want to find it anyway, it should take about twenty seconds.

Said cartoon shows a picture of the Pope having sex with an underage boy while talking to Mohammed (recognizable by the classic bomb in his turban; if Mohammed ever pulls off some kind of Muslim Second Coming, he's going to have to get one of those bombs just so that people recognize him.) Mohammed says "Don't worry, I never use condoms when raping my 9 year old wife", and the Pope replies "Thank God! That would be immoral!"

Chris notes that it's relatively truth-based, in that the Catholic Church does have a terrible record of covering up paedophilia, and that Mohammed did marry a nine-year old kid. He says:
"It’s not wrong to mock religion in this way. In fact, there’s a pretty good test in here for whether your moral compass is well-calibrated. Which offends you more: the pretensions to moral authority of a man who had previously been involved in hushing up child rape? Or seeing said pretensions ridiculed?"

So first, let's point out that it's not actually all that truth-based. The Pope has not himself raped any children, as far as we know. I don't even think anyone claims he approves of raping children, he just seems to disapprove of it much less than anyone else does, or at least have a very weird way of showing his disapproval.

For Mohammed's part, there's no evidence that he raped his young wife Aisha; she was the daughter of one of his close friends, and in the accounts she later wrote of his life she goes overboard with stories of how much she loved him. There is no record of her being opposed to or reluctant about the marriage. Even calling it "statutory rape" is misleading as she was well past the age of marriage set by the laws of Arabia at the time (granted, these laws were horrible). Some Muslims (most Muslims?) believe Aisha wasn't even a child at all, and that she later exaggerated her youth at the time of marriage in order to gain political advantage by playing up her commitment to Mohammed. And, alas, Mohammed didn't really wear the bomb turban, and it's hard to know whether he would have approved of modern terrorism - he seems like one of those honorable people who made sure to always stab his enemies in the front.

So the comic has four outright lies, regardless of anything else we may find wrong with it.

Chris acknowledges this, but claims it's symbolic exaggeration and synecdoche, and that the audience is expected to realize this. It's not untruth, it's art.
As for the current Pope, no, there’s no evidence he’s a child rapist. He’s just head of an organization with a history of enabling child rape...The cartoon expects the audience to more-or-less know this; it’s not trying to slander the Pope as a rapist.

So okay. Imagine a comic with the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, sporting an enormous nose, sitting upon a pile of gold and tearing the head off a Palestinian baby. Not offensive at all, right! Because some Jews do have biggish noses, lots of Jews are good with finance, and there are some Jews who are involved in seriously questionable human rights abuses. So it's just symbolic exaggeration and synecdoche! Perfectly harmless!

(also: "There’s a pretty good test in here for whether your moral compass is well-calibrated. Which offends you more: killing lots of Palestinian children so your "chosen people" can take over their land? Or seeing a comic about it?" This is a super duper false dichotomy.)

But maybe that's not fair; it's not obvious that our culture's level of sensitivity and easily-offendedness at anti-Semitism is optimal. Let's see if we can replicate the offensiveness without taking advantage of pre-existing cultural trigger points:

Gilbert from Last Conformer recently mentioned a strategy of his: whenever you can't understand something the other side is doing, trying to find something isomorphic on your own side and see if it makes more sense.

(I hereby assert that I independently had this idea - I even wrote it in some stuff I sent Luke Muehlhauser a while back - but in today's publish-or-perish blogosphere I will concede Gilbert deserves the credit.)

So let's use Gilbert's idea. Religious people are inexplicably claiming to be offended by this perfectly good cartoon. Is there something similar that would offend atheists, and if so, can we figure out why?



I won't ask whether my atheist readers are "offended by" this comic. The word "offense" has gathered so many connotations, both good and bad, that their answer would have a lot more to do with whether promoting the idea of offense is useful to their political goals than about anything in the cartoon. Instead I'll ask: is this a good comic, a virtuous comic? Does the comic promote good argumentative norms? Does it set forth a challenge atheists need to answer? Do you as an atheist consider it an honorable opponent, the sort of conversation you like to have? Is the world a better place for the existence of this comic?

Would it be fair to argue: "It’s not wrong to mock atheism in this way. In fact, there’s a pretty good test in here for whether your moral compass is well-calibrated. Which offends you more: the horrors of school shootings and Soviet communism? Or seeing said horrors pointed out?"

And if, like me, you think that this comic above is unfair, unproductive, unkind: now that it has been translated into our language, how might we start to point out the problems with it?

I know you are all very smart and can come up with twenty reasons why this comic is not quite isomorphic to the original. Some of them will be irrelevant (the Pope is depicted in proper costume in the first, but my Soviet is mysteriously wearing a czarist uniform). Others will be just plain wrong (actually, I can get you quotes from a few school shooters talking about how much they hate creationism, if that was your complaint, and you wouldn't believe how many atheists tried to excuse or justify Soviet communism right up until there stopped being a Soviet communism to excuse). Others will be good points (the Pope is a figure of respect for many religious people, but school shooters are not a figure of respect for any atheists).

But the question isn't whether there are differences: the question is whether the differences are sufficient to justify being offended by one but not the other. I don't think there are. I think once we analyze some of the factors that make this second comic offensive, we will have explained some of the problems with the first.

Without touching on every single problem, let me note three broad points, which hopefully will explain the big-nosed rabbi example above as well.

First, the comic never says "Please generalize from these two people to all atheists." There's really no reason to think anyone should. Maybe it's just a perfectly normal high-schooler in a trenchcoat with a copy of the God Delusion, meeting a perfectly normal Soviet prison guard, with no greater relevance to the intellectual world outside the two of them, right? And yet it is totally obvious that this is what is supposed to happen.

Second, this comic is not an argument, but it has a conclusion. The conclusion is something like "Negative feelings toward atheists!" or "Atheist conceptions of what is rational are horribly skewed". If we were to actually try to put this in an argument, the argument would fall apart instantly. "One atheist did something bad, a few other atheists were too quick to excuse it, and somehow we're going from there to all atheists being hypocritical in denouncing creationism?" And yet because it's not framed as an argument, it manages to sneak under the radar (compare: superweapons). This is why I am suspicious of claims like "I'm just 'presenting a narrative', not trying to argue anything."

Third and most important, the comic is obviously intended to cause offense. Chris even titled the post "Does this cartoon offend you?" Suppose I go up to a big group of people on the street, single out a big muscular guy with a couple of tattoos, and say "Hey you! Yeah, you! You're...you're perspicacious! Yeah, you heard me! Perspicacious! What're you gonna do about it?"

Probably that guy would beat me up. Not because "perspicacious" is an offensive word. But because he got the feeling that I was trying to offend him, and trying to offend someone is itself offensive, whether or not you succeed. It's basically saying "Bet you're too weak to be able to do anything about this."

Let's be really clear about why this comic exists, and why it is getting upvoted at r/atheism. It's not because it points out that the Pope is soft on child abuse, or that there is a tradition of Mohammed marrying a young child; as Chris admits, the reader is already expected to know this. It's not because it points out the hypocrisy of being against condom use while being soft on child abuse; that's no more "hypocritical" than being against creationism while shooting up a school. The entire point of this comic is to be able to offend religious people and get away with it by saying "Ha ha, I bet you can't point out exactly what's offensive about this, so your complaint is invalid!" It's an attempt to make someone feel bad and then trap them into not being able to complain about it.

And the lies, which Chris dismisses as dramatic exaggeration, are kind of the point. The lies are supposed to make it offensive, so that when someone gets offended, you can seize on it and say "Hah, you are a terrible person who is offended by me calling people out on child abuse, but not on child abuse itself!"



If there were no lies, it would look like this, and then no one would be offended, and then it wouldn't be fun anymore.


I do not know if the original comic is actually "offensive" - as I said, I hate that word. But it's certainly not good. It's not as bad as child rape, but "not as bad as child rape" is a very low standard to hold a blog to.

There are lots of good ways to fight child rape. If the Pope read my blog, I would totally ask him why he's doing such a bad job pursuing child abusers (actually, can someone explain this to me? It doesn't seem to be in his self-interest and there's no theological justification for it) and try to criticize him on this. If I thought there were a lot of people reading my blog who weren't aware that the Catholic Church has a serious child abuse problem, and though informing them would help, I would try to do that. But posting a comic that reiterates what everyone already knows just in order to make people mad (and honestly, if your goal wasn't to make people mad why put the bomb on Mohammed's head?) That's out of "helpfully informing and questioning territory" and into "trolling with a halo" territory.
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-11-28 11:59 pm (UTC)

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"the Catholic Church does have a terrible record of covering up paedophilia,"

Meanwhile, as part of No Child Left Behind, a study was commissioned to determine sexual abuse of children in public school. They came to a conclusion that it was about one in ten.

Or, as the study author put it, your child is a hundred times more likely to be molested by a school teacher than a priest.

Everyone remember the uproar over that? The cartoon like this with a public school teacher in place of the Pope?

No, of course not, because the truth is not "he just seems to disapprove of it much less than anyone else does", it's that the media really do disapprove of it much less than anyone else does, and therefore gives it the full press coverage only when they hate an institution on other grounds.
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-11-29 12:05 am (UTC)

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You're leaving out the crucial fact that the Catholic Church systematically covered up for abusing priests for decades, to a degree that it's a reasonable suspicion that every single bishop knew about it. Teachers suspected of abuse lose their jobs. If they don't in some system, that'd be a big scandal -- for that system, not schools in general.

You responded to a line about cover-up by saying teachers abuse too. Logical fallacy.

I'm skeptical of the 1 in 10 figure, but teachers have far more time with kids than most priests -- even for Catholic kids, let alone all the non-Catholics -- so naturally there'd be more abuse in absolute terms. More relevant would be the rate of abuse per time of potential abuse.

Edited at 2012-11-29 12:06 am (UTC)
[User Picture]From: st_rev
2012-11-29 12:36 am (UTC)

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"All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package."


School administrations and teacher unions would seem to have been at least as enthusiastic about covering up for their own.
[User Picture]From: jordan179
2012-11-29 05:45 am (UTC)

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... teachers have far more time with kids than most priests -- even for Catholic kids, let alone all the non-Catholics -- so naturally there'd be more abuse in absolute terms. More relevant would be the rate of abuse per time of potential abuse.

You make an excellent point -- and that would be the rate which would allow one to logically determine how much one would trust an individual whose identity was known to one only as "priest" or "teacher" with one's own children.
[User Picture]From: Randy Miller
2012-11-29 04:01 pm (UTC)

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But, it is surely not likely for abuse to happen in front of a classroom or such, so the relevant metric would be time alone with one or a very few children.

I don't know for sure how that metric would go; probably teachers would still come out ahead, but I think both teachers and priests generally have to seek out such opportunities. (I was a teacher recently).
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-11-29 04:11 pm (UTC)

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Yeah, but also more time with kids to gain trust or "groom" them or whatever. Not that I know how much priests tend to interact with kids.
[User Picture]From: squid314
2012-11-29 12:19 am (UTC)

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I remember doing research on this once and finding that, in proportion to their exposure (no pun intended), priests really did abuse way more kids than other people in professions relating to children. I don't actually have the data anymore, so all I can do is make the assertion.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-11-29 01:34 am (UTC)

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Given that others who have done research have asserted that Catholic priests are no more likely than any other group of clergy, all of whom are underrepresented compared to the general population -- well, go ahead, assert it.
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-11-29 01:44 am (UTC)

(Link)

"No more likely" by what metric? Scott stated his: "in proportion to their exposure".
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-11-30 01:26 am (UTC)

in proportion to their exposure

(Link)

What an insane metric.

Child molestation is not a crime of oppurtunity. Molesters seek out and cultivate children for weeks, months, even years, which is why they are concentrate in populations that work with children. You might as well compare the damage burglars do to people's house in proportion to the amount of time they spend in other people's house relative to the general population.

The only sane metric is in proportion to their incidence in the general population.

For a doctor to willfully cultivate his own ignorance this area is past insane. There's a reason why doctors are mandatory reporters of suspected child abuse, and for that reason, they of all people should avoid having their beliefs contaminated for falsehood. Whatever their motive for letting it happen.
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-11-30 01:36 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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From what I've read, child molestation totally is and isn't a crime of opportunity, because not all molesters are the same. Some are true pedophiles with a specific attraction to children, and they're more likely to target and 'groom'. Others are just frustrated otherwise-normal people, who seize an opportunity.

Even with 'grooming', that takes time. More time and exposure = more time for grooming. A potential molester who sees a child for 5 minutes a day doesn't have the same opportunity as one who sees them for 8 hours a day. A purely opportunistic model of molestation would also predict that they concentrate in occupations that work with children.
[User Picture]From: squid314
2012-11-30 04:55 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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You're not understanding what I mean by "exposure". I mean that almost every child interacts closely teacher, but only a few children interact closely with a priest. So if there are ten times more cases of molestation by teachers, but only one child in a hundred interact closely with a Catholic priest, then the average priest-interaction is ten times more likely to result in a molestation than the average teacher-interaction.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-12-01 01:14 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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SO WHAT?

I've already pointed out that it's an insane metric, because the interactions are not randomly distributed but a function of the child molesters in themselves.

So why do you bring it up? Twice? Especially since doctors are mandatory reporters, and if you are barking up the wrong tree, you put yourself in grave danger of failing your duty.
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-12-01 02:20 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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So why do you bring it up? Twice? Especially since doctors are mandatory reporters, and if you are barking up the wrong tree, you put yourself in grave danger of failing your duty.

This seems a baseless accusation, bordering on slander. He's mandated to report signs of specific abuse; his belief about base rates shouldn't affect that, and aren't likely to be more inaccurate than those of other doctors anyway. (For one thing, he knows what a base rate is.)
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-12-01 04:04 pm (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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"Shouldn't" is the operative word that. That they shouldn't doesn't mean that they can't.
[User Picture]From: squid314
2012-12-01 12:16 pm (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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I think you're being extremely unfair and confrontational here. Obviously I'm not as a doctor going to randomly accuse priests and let everyone else off. But in a discussion about whether priests abuse children disproportionately, in which you claim that they don't, the fact that they do seems like useful information.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-12-01 04:15 pm (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

(Link)

In a discussion about whether priests abuse children disproportionately, in which you claim that they do, the fact that they do not seems like useful information.

I have given a reason why my metric is superior to yours, and you have given no reason why yours is superior to mine, even after I asked.

As for "unfair and confrontational" I would say that would rather be making accusation that "he just seems to disapprove of [pedophilia] much less than anyone else does." is, by any reasonable standard, far more unfair and confrontational if mine is.
From: (Anonymous)
2012-12-01 11:40 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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I'm inclined to be skeptical on that result because
a) for it to be true the average child-molesting priest would need to molest much more children than the average child molesting teacher, which can't be explained by getting away with it, because teachers get away with it too and
b) the close-child-interaction-time is a second variable that is very difficult to estimate so you have an easy source of error here.

Also, if by cases you mean judicial ones the entire calculation explodes because of sovereign immunity.
[User Picture]From: Roman Davis
2012-12-01 04:02 am (UTC)

Re: in proportion to their exposure

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From a priest's or a cops point of view, this is useful info, but from a parents point of view, whose only question, presumably, is "Should I trust them with my child?" Rape per child minute still seems like good info to have.
[User Picture]From: st_rev
2012-11-29 12:37 am (UTC)

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I'm in favor of shutting down both the churches and the public schools, but the public schools deserve it more.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-11-30 01:37 am (UTC)

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You're going to be shutting down a lot more than either, if you apply your standard evenly.
[User Picture]From: katsaris
2012-12-01 03:03 pm (UTC)

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Do you have a link to that study?

The metric we should be studying incidents-per-person in position of authority, not incidents-per-child - The former metric is the one that indicates whether there's nothing rotten in the system that so places them in positions of authority.

E.g. because teachers are *not* forced to be celibate, and because there are many teachers in every school, and they have a principal also in the premise, I'd be very surprised if the molestation incidents are as frequent per position-of-authority to the clergy where there's one priest-per-parish with noone else in direct supervision and that priest is mandated to be celibate.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-12-01 04:00 pm (UTC)

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Your views on both celibacy and what inspires people to molest children are warped beyond belief.
[User Picture]From: marycatelli
2012-12-01 04:01 pm (UTC)

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If celibacy is such a villain, why are the rates for all clergy similar, given that not all groups have celibacy for equivalent figures?
[User Picture]From: katsaris
2012-12-01 06:07 pm (UTC)

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I can neither explain nor be informed by data that I've not actually examined. Again I ask: do you have a link to that study? If I'm convinced, I'll abandon my belief that celibacy contributes.

And in the hypothetical that "the rates for all clergy" are indeed similar between themselves, but dissimilar to other professions (e.g. teachers), then how do *you* justify this difference?