?

Log in

Stuff - Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
Scott

[ userinfo | livejournal userinfo ]
[ archive | journal archive ]

Stuff [Jul. 11th, 2012|10:44 pm]
Scott
[Tags|, ]

Go to any discussion about utilitarianism and CTRL+F "communists" or "Soviet" in the comments. It's like its own little mini-Godwin's Law. A comment on a recent LW post that started off as a very academic critique of the mathematical assumptions:
"The Soviet Union was an attempt to build a Friendly government based on utilitarianism. They quickly reached 'shoot someone versus dust specks' and went for shooting people."

Those two sentences make me cringe for at least three reasons, but here I'm going to concentrate on the big one: were the Communists actually utilitarian?

There are at least two ways the Communists could have been utilitarian. First, they could have actively believed in and endorsed utilitarian philosophies. Second, they may have explicitly rejected utilitarian philosophies, but still implicitly acted according to utilitarian principles.

Let's start by looking up "utilitarianism" on Wikipedia. There's no mention of the Communists until the section "Individual Criticisms of Utilitarianism", where we find only two historical figures who objected to utilitarianism vociferously enough to be included as Official Wikipedia Utilitarian Critics. One is Pope John Paul II. The other was Karl Marx.

Marx's actual critique is somewhat opaque. As far as I can tell, he seems to alternate between sometimes criticizing it as so obvious that even to state it is wasting his time, and other times condemning it as pretty much his least favorite thing ever.

According to Karl Marx by Allen Wood, "Marx's explicit statements about utilitarianism do not give us much to work with. They express contemptuous rejection of the doctrine, but give little evidence that Marx understands what he is rejecting. They attack only caricatures of utilitarian thinking, and betray some fairly elementary misunderstandings of what utilitarianism is all about."

This is my feeling as well. Marx seems to be confusing the personal speculations of Jeremy Bentham (whom Marx called "an insipid, pedantic, leather-tongued oracle of ordinary bourgeois understanding") with the fundamental principles of utilitarianism. So when Bentham speculates utilitarianism would support the Christian religion as conducive to a peaceful society, Marx just hears "utilitarianism = Christianity" and dismisses it.

Is there anything a little more substantive? According to the same work: "Marx appears disinclined to regard the nonmoral good as quantitatively measurable and summable in the ways required by utilitarian theories. I think this is part of what The German Ideology means to express when it criticizes utilitarians for 'merging all relations in' ... the 'abstract category of utility'... Marx's deepest disagreements with utilitarianism have to do with his conception of morality. Marx regards moral norms as determined by correspondence to the prevailing mode of production, and not by what is conducive to the greatest nonmoral good. Given Marx's theory of social change, this leads to systematic divergences betewen his account of what morality demands and a utilitarian account."

I am not a Marx scholar, and I get the feeling that there may be an element of semantics in here - that Marx dislikes utilitarianism as a moral theory, since he believes all moral theories are by definition tools of oppression. Right now all I can say with confidence is that Marx personally believed he strongly disagreed with utilitarianism, and condemned it pretty harshly. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, I would say that he shared exactly the same criticisms as the people who invoke his name as an arch-utilitarian have themselves, and that he figured utilitarianism was a Christian plot just as the Christians believe it to be a Marxist one.

Speaking of Communist condemnations of utilitarianism as Christian, in his very directly-titled work Their Morals And Ours, Leon Trotksy traces the principle "the end justifies the means" back to the Jesuits, a historical point I didn't previously know. Although I find the book pretty impenetrable, its Communist commentators assure me that he wrote it because he was 'accused of being an amoralist who always believed that the ends justified the means'. Trotsky certainly sounds like he thinks he's arguing that the end doesn't justify the means, although his attack on that concept seems to me to be half-hearted (and Lenin did famously say "If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?" although others have interpreted Lenin as a virtue ethicist). So I dunno what the heck Trotsky thinks on ends and means himself, but he does go on to say the obligatory "Actually, it's the capitalists who really believe the ends justify the means" plus the obligatory digs at Benthamism and utilitarianism.

According to Socialist Alternative's summary of the book:
"Trotsky is not interested in playing intellectual games. For him the point is that utilitarianism was the philosophy par excellence of the capitalist class at its most rabid - when the industrial revolution was blighting the lives of British workers."

We could go on in this vein forever with treatments of different communist thinkers, but Mao and Stalin would give us a lot that's pretty similar to what we've already got, so let's move to Official Soviet Moral Policy. This policy was not utilitarian. A critic could argue that of course Stalin or whoever wasn't going to tell other people to be utilitarian, because that would interfere with his utilitarian program - but the fact is that the morality that the government promulgated upon the Soviet populace was a vague set of platitudes about class struggle, patriotism, and class belongingness which didn't resemble utilitarianism in any way. My favorite is this essay on "The Moral Code Of The Builders of Communism", which begins "We are on the threshold of communism. Communism!" with what in retrospect seems to be slightly misplaced enthusiasm. Anyway, it all looks very virtue ethicist, and here's a paper that argues that's exactly what it was.

So the gist of this part is that the Communists did not consider themselves utilitarian. In fact, they condemned utilitarianism as Christian and capitalist with the same vehemence that the Christians and capitalists condemn it as being Communist. It was basically as much a bogeyman for them as it was for everyone else.

This leaves the second question - even if the commies were not explicitly utilitarianism, might they have been implicitly acting according to utilitarian principles? This has some superficial plausibility. Although Mao never said anything like "Yes, my policies will kill millions of people - but it's for the grand goal of creating a utopian communist society so it's okay", if he had been more self-conscious about justifying his policies, it would seem he certainly could have tried that approach.

Let's divide this second question into two subquestions. First, does utilitarianism actually justify the Communists' actions? Second, could a reasonable person erring through ignorance rather than through malice have believed utilitarianism justified the Communists' actions?

The answer to the first question is a pretty resounding "no". The Communists' mass murder sprees didn't end up creating a utopian society. They just left a lot of people dead, and ended in post-Soviet kleptocracy and modern Chinese neo-authoritarianism. Even if the end did justify the means, the ends of the Communists' actions ended up too sucky to justify anything. If modern day Russia was a paradise of free and happy people living in an idyllic post-scarcity society, then we could have an interesting debate on whether the victory was worth the cost. Since that didn't happen, there's not much to debate about.

But the answer to the second question is just as obviously "yes". A well-intentioned (but insufficiently smart) person could have believed that Communist atrocities would be worth it in the end. So if you launch into utilitarianism gung-ho without any precautions, then insufficiently smart people will cause a catastrophe. This is a valid critique of utilitarianism. It's also a valid critique of chemistry and of driving a car.

I would also add that it's a fully general critique. Yes, we can counterfactually imagine Stalin as being a well-intentioned but not-so-smart utilitarian who screwed up. But we could also counterfactually imagine Martin Luther King or George Washington as being well-intentioned but not-so-smart utilitarians who lucked out. If we're going to play the "pretend historical figures were utilitarian" game, it's unfair to only apply it to the historical figures whose policies ended in disaster.

In conclusion, the communists were not utilitarians and hated utilitarians more than you do. Although one can imagine a counterfactual world in which well-meaning but foolish utilitarians could have implemented Communist policies, one can imagine a counterfactual world in which well-meaning but foolish utilitarians implement any policy whatsoever, so this doesn't prove much.
linkReply

Comments:
Page 1 of 4
<<[1] [2] [3] [4] >>
[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2012-07-12 03:25 am (UTC)
Side note: while reading Pinker I was amused to realize that market libertarians (esp. anarcho-capitalists) and utilitarians share a high level similarity, despite seeming like opposites in many ways. They're both universalist and highly 'rational' in putting numbers on everything, and seeing everything as tradeable-off. For one the numbers are market prices, for the other they're utility estimates.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: celandine13
2012-07-12 11:03 am (UTC)
Well of course we do!

We are branches off of the same intellectual tradition, and we are pretty much the same mental phenotype.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
[User Picture]From: celandine13
2012-07-12 11:02 am (UTC)
Yeah, you make a good point (Marx and Bentham don't go well together.)

Utilitarianism does lead very directly and explicitly to social democracy (or welfare states). I mean, Rawls directly uses a utilitarian calculus!

I think that's the implicit direction people are going here.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: squid314
2012-07-12 08:31 pm (UTC)
"Utilitarianism does lead very directly and explicitly to social democracy (or welfare states)."

I'm glad you said that, because it sounds like the same argument Marx was using and I was disappointed he was too dead for me to probe him further on that point.

What do you mean by utilitarianism leading directly to social democracy/welfare state? Isn't that sort of begging the question? That is, couldn't an monarchist think monarchy would create the best and happiest society and therefore utilitarianism would lead to monarchy? Or a sympathetic communist say communism would create the best and happiest society and therefore utilitarianism would lead to communism?

If we have a clever form of utilitarianism that captures most of what we mean by "value", than "the government that true utilitarianism leads to" should be identical to "the best government" or "the government that produces the most value". As such, I don't understand how for example one could be a communist but say utilitarianism would lead to liberal democracy.

(exceptions: if you're specifically excluding some people from moral worth like racists not caring about the utility of minorities. Or if you are much more interested in fair distribution than in totals - but given the diminishing returns in increasing the utility of the rich and Rawls' argument, that shouldn't be too big an issue.)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
[User Picture]From: George Koleszarik
2012-07-13 12:28 am (UTC)
Great post, &c.

I laughed out loud at, "If modern day Russia was a paradise of free and happy people living in an idyllic post-scarcity society". It looks like you weren't actually trying to make a joke there, but man, if you're familiar with Russian history and mentality at all, that's hilarious
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2012-07-14 07:17 am (UTC)
> But the answer to the second question is just as obviously "yes". A well-intentioned (but insufficiently smart) person could have believed that Communist atrocities would be worth it in the end. So if you launch into utilitarianism gung-ho without any precautions, then insufficiently smart people will cause a catastrophe. This is a valid critique of utilitarianism. It's also a valid critique of chemistry and of driving a car.

I think you are being uselessly rhetorical here.

If the utilities are too difficult for people to calculate with sufficient fidelity, the critique would amount to 'driving a bicycle that steers the back wheel' which is something that humans are not capable of doing well at all, falling down, due to reasons fairly subtle and complex.

Furthermore, you are focussing too much on the detached, non actionable abstractions which the communists chose to believe-in-a-belief of. The communism was very much doublethink.

For instance, the justification given for no-evidence trial and absence of presumption of innocence were that it is better to jail 10 innocents than to let 1 traitor get away as the traitors can have an incredibly high impact. This relates to Lenin's "If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?" .

With regards to malice versus ignorance, there is no clear boundary and the malice can be seen as moral ignorance or vice versa. When you want something for yourself - we all have our drives - you do a check if it is morally OK for you to obtain it - and then if you are clever and your reasoning system is self contradictory, it is invariably morally OK.
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-03 11:12 am (UTC)

sggknqiifd

lnyxpwuylv
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-06 08:29 am (UTC)

How to buy a best celine bags online store

myrvq [url=http://www.pickcelinehandbags.com]celine bags[/url] tmiatq http://www.pickcelinehandbags.com vronb [url=http://www.savecelinehandbags.com]celine bag[/url] zjzwmh http://www.savecelinehandbags.com nvqbs [url=http://www.savecelinebags.com]cheap celine bags[/url] otmida http://www.savecelinebags.com mohn [url=http://www.goodcelinebags.com]celine bags[/url] kfmonr http://www.goodcelinebags.com xlljn [url=http://www.goodcelinehandbags.com]celine bag[/url] jmoxcm http://www.goodcelinehandbags.com zlnzv [url=http://www.onlinecelinebags.com]celine bag[/url] dcqzqv http://www.onlinecelinebags.com jzgm
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-06 09:00 am (UTC)

How to buy a best cheap beats by dre online store

vuqaj [url=http://www.get-beatsbydre.com]beats by dre cheap[/url] jdmfx http://www.get-beatsbydre.com suilc [url=http://www.givebeatsbydre.com]dr dre beats[/url] jqnsb http://www.givebeatsbydre.com yyvwx [url=http://www.givedrdrebeats.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] yuehg http://www.givedrdrebeats.com ddygo [url=http://www.savedrdrebeats.com]dr dre beats[/url] jsbph http://www.savedrdrebeats.com hwyoh [url=http://www.paybeatsbydre.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] pwjog http://www.paybeatsbydre.com mgpgj [url=http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com]beats by dre[/url] vjcct http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com pwfv
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-12 07:16 pm (UTC)

Buy a cheap beats by dre sale online here

hgyvx [url=http://www.get-beatsbydre.com]beats by dre cheap[/url] xbfxt http://www.get-beatsbydre.com ogzlo [url=http://www.givebeatsbydre.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] fxfpd http://www.givebeatsbydre.com vfqjf [url=http://www.givedrdrebeats.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] spnfx http://www.givedrdrebeats.com etlfn [url=http://www.savedrdrebeats.com]beats by dre[/url] yiruy http://www.savedrdrebeats.com shejo [url=http://www.paybeatsbydre.com]beats by dre cheap[/url] xgyrg http://www.paybeatsbydre.com eowlp [url=http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com]dr dre beats[/url] iujoz http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com kkpz
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-14 12:40 am (UTC)

Buy a cheap beats by dre sale online here

uvcdw [url=http://www.givebeatsbydre.com]beats by dre[/url] rmgng http://www.givebeatsbydre.com upnii [url=http://www.givedrdrebeats.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] fivsx http://www.givedrdrebeats.com crtwv [url=http://www.savedrdrebeats.com]beats by dre[/url] ixuww http://www.savedrdrebeats.com eeeza [url=http://www.paybeatsbydre.com]beats by dre cheap[/url] rucid http://www.paybeatsbydre.com hlkis [url=http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com]dr dre beats[/url] ueyqt http://www.paycheapbeatsbydre.com skyy [url=http://www.beatsbydrelo.com]beats by dre[/url] shodb http://www.beatsbydrelo.com gsbfb
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-17 04:51 pm (UTC)

Buy cheap beats by dre sale online here in uk

eeabh [url=http://www.foxbeatsbydre.co.uk]beats by dre[/url] jcmdw http://www.foxbeatsbydre.co.uk afgtg [url=http://www.add-beatsbydre.co.uk]dr dre beats[/url] tbeha http://www.add-beatsbydre.co.uk zpwpv [url=http://www.beatsshop2013.com]dr dre beats[/url] ganyv http://www.beatsshop2013.com krgyq [url=http://www.onlinecheapbeatsbydre.com]beats by dre[/url] hqfbm http://www.onlinecheapbeatsbydre.com dkhub [url=http://www.justdrdrebeatssale.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] onxtc http://www.justdrdrebeatssale.com orvtg [url=http://www.vip-beatsbydresale.com]beats by dre[/url] ybpjd http://www.vip-beatsbydresale.com ivyn
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-18 09:43 pm (UTC)

where can i buy cheap hollister outlet online outlet

ouqpt [url=http://www.hollisteroutletonsale.com]Hollister[/url] aiven http://www.hollisteroutletonsale.com lkidp [url=http://www.hollisterjeans-onsale.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] ffhof http://www.hollisterjeans-onsale.com thomm [url=http://www.hollisterclothingluck.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] ktdry http://www.hollisterclothingluck.com dgaw [url=http://www.hollisteroutletluck.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] izlkn http://www.hollisteroutletluck.com jlbci [url=http://www.hollisterjeansxiao.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] ocbgt http://www.hollisterjeansxiao.com fgaot [url=http://www.hollisterjeansnamer.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] rebtc http://www.hollisterjeansnamer.com ewmb
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-18 11:35 pm (UTC)

where to buy Hollister Clothing online sale?

yde [url=http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] xkr http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com swu [url=http://www.hollisterjeansname.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] wkt http://www.hollisterjeansname.com gdg [url=http://www.hollisteroutletname.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] iaw http://www.hollisteroutletname.com onl [url=http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] dpg http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com gsv [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] xhr http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com kko
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-19 11:39 pm (UTC)

where to buy Beats By Dre online sale?

feb [url=http://www.beatsbydrename.com]Cheap Beats By Dre[/url] wps http://www.beatsbydrename.com tyz [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrelo.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] lwm http://www.cheapbeatsbydrelo.com obz [url=http://www.drdrebeatswe.com]Cheap Beats By Dre[/url] kxv http://www.drdrebeatswe.com mor [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrewe.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] dcz http://www.cheapbeatsbydrewe.com uaw [url=http://www.beatsbydrewe.com]Cheap Beats By Dre[/url] dci http://www.beatsbydrewe.com ape
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-20 04:38 am (UTC)

where to buy Hollister Clothing online sale?

icr [url=http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] amf http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com ggs [url=http://www.hollisterjeansname.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] jjy http://www.hollisterjeansname.com bxi [url=http://www.hollisteroutletname.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] gvc http://www.hollisteroutletname.com zda [url=http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] njh http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com pyh [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] qbi http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com svx
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-21 05:17 pm (UTC)

where to Beats By Dre online sale?

ajb [url=http://www.beatsbydrename.com]Cheap Beats By Dre[/url] cps http://www.beatsbydrename.com afr [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrelo.com]Cheap Beats By Dre[/url] gey http://www.cheapbeatsbydrelo.com yuj [url=http://www.drdrebeatswe.com]Beats By Dre[/url] fxl http://www.drdrebeatswe.com pab [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrewe.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] net http://www.cheapbeatsbydrewe.com tkg [url=http://www.beatsbydrewe.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] yvh http://www.beatsbydrewe.com vpc [url=http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com]Celine Bag[/url] oxa http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com ytu [url=http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com]Celine Bags[/url] iqt http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com vmb
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-25 04:05 am (UTC)

where to buy Hollister Clothing online sale?

trz [url=http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] dgb http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com gff [url=http://www.hollisterjeansname.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] phz http://www.hollisterjeansname.com ejh [url=http://www.hollisteroutletname.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] ptc http://www.hollisteroutletname.com utq [url=http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] hwk http://www.hollisterjeanswe.com jej [url=http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] dxi http://www.cheapbeatsbydrename.com wtt [url=http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com]Celine Bags[/url] kyi http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com xew [url=http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com]Celine Bag[/url] ufs http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com swn
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-26 02:29 am (UTC)

where to buy cheap Celine Bag online sale?

bhu [url=http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com]Celine Handbags[/url] cii http://www.celineluggagetotediscount.com zam [url=http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com]Celine Bag[/url] vph http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com opl [url=http://www.celinebagxiao.com]Celine Bag[/url] itz http://www.celinebagxiao.com ubx [url=http://www.celinehandbagswe.com]Celine Handbags[/url] yiq http://www.celinehandbagswe.com yyq [url=http://www.drdrebeatsname.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] ouh http://www.drdrebeatsname.com mup [url=http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] svb http://www.hollisteroutletnamee.com vjb [url=http://www.hollisterjeansname.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] apu http://www.hollisterjeansname.com rzk
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-02-28 01:35 pm (UTC)

where can i buy a hollister outlet online

rmmmp [url=http://www.hollisteroutletonsale.com]Hollister Jeans[/url] yfuqw http://www.hollisteroutletonsale.com jofgc [url=http://www.hollisterjeans-onsale.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] jqzbk http://www.hollisterjeans-onsale.com ziarn [url=http://www.hollisterclothingluck.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] hblom http://www.hollisterclothingluck.com qwzc [url=http://www.hollisteroutletluck.com]Hollister Outlet[/url] pnysg http://www.hollisteroutletluck.com peeez [url=http://www.hollisterjeansxiao.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] pxmqm http://www.hollisterjeansxiao.com bqqgn [url=http://www.hollisterjeansnamer.com]Hollister Clothing[/url] ocqrl http://www.hollisterjeansnamer.com iphq
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-02 08:37 am (UTC)

where to buy Louis Vuitton Handbags online sale?

lzj [url=http://louisvuittonsaleky.com]Louis Vuitton Handbags[/url] oib http://louisvuittonsaleky.com osl [url=http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com]Celine Bags[/url] uua http://www.celinehandbagsdiscount.com lqn [url=http://www.celinebagxiao.com]Celine Handbags[/url] itk http://www.celinebagxiao.com lop [url=http://louisvuittonoutletonlineky.com]Louis Vuitton Sale[/url] nqv http://louisvuittonoutletonlineky.com xdd [url=http://louisvuittonhandbagsoutletky.com]Louis Vuitton Handbags[/url] rks http://louisvuittonhandbagsoutletky.com fmz [url=http://cheapbeatsbydreky.com]Dr Dre Beats[/url] dqw http://cheapbeatsbydreky.com kiv
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-08 10:57 am (UTC)

where to buy designer handbags online sale?

rse [url=http://www.designerhandbags.uk.com]designer handbags[/url] lhg http://www.designerhandbags.uk.com txv [url=http://www.belstaff-jacket.us]belstaff jacket[/url] yjo http://www.belstaff-jacket.us gxj [url=http://www.belstaff--sale.co.uk]belstaff jacket[/url] rki http://www.belstaff--sale.co.uk uwu [url=http://www.belstaff-jacket.us]belstaff jacket[/url] vqj http://www.belstaff-jacket.us cmp
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-09 01:26 pm (UTC)

where to louis vuitton handbags online sale?

mag [url=http://louisvuittonoutletbny.com]discount louis vuitton[/url] mvq http://louisvuittonoutletbny.com pnzv [url=http://louisvuittonboutlet.com]louis vuitton sale[/url] xizv http://louisvuittonboutlet.com pue [url=http://hollisterboutlet.co.uk]Hollister Clothing[/url] tdk http://hollisterboutlet.co.uk terq [url=http://okhollisteroutlet.co.uk]Hollister Clothing[/url] lqm http://okhollisteroutlet.co.uk opj [url=http://beatsbydrehfwh.co.uk]Beats By Dre[/url] oxt http://beatsbydrehfwh.co.uk yyc [url=http://christianlouboutinac.com]christian louboutin shoes[/url] rqv http://christianlouboutinac.com rjx
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-09 01:32 pm (UTC)

where to buy cheap louis vuitton online sale?

swh [url=http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com]louis vuitton handbags[/url] rwg http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com qql [url=http://www.ccelinebags.com]celine handbags[/url] zmx http://www.ccelinebags.com fhy [url=http://www.beatsbydre-chen.com]dr dre beats[/url] poh http://www.beatsbydre-chen.com gyxe [url=http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com]beats by dre[/url] dgzx http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com cdc [url=http://christianlouboutinab.com]christian louboutin shoes[/url] rjo http://christianlouboutinab.com cvn
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-12 07:59 am (UTC)

where to buy cheap louis vuitton online sale?

fuj [url=http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com]discount louis vuitton[/url] rzx http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com xfc[url=http://louisvuittonuk-sales.co.uk]louis vuitton UK[/url] wvg http://louisvuittonuk-sales.co.uk ppq [url=http://www.ccelinebags.com]celine handbags[/url] kqv http://www.ccelinebags.com lcn [url=http://www.beatsbydre-chen.com]beats by dre[/url] imz http://www.beatsbydre-chen.com ijqc [url=http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] llqn http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com oly [url=http://christianlouboutinab.com]christian louboutin outlet[/url] ytq http://christianlouboutinab.com keg
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-12 07:21 pm (UTC)

where to buy Louis Vuitton Handbags online sale?

lga [url=http://louisvuittonhandbagsoutletky.com]Louis Vuitton Sale[/url] lqa http://louisvuittonhandbagsoutletky.com qxv [url=http://mulberrybagshr.co.uk]Mulberry Outlet UK[/url] vuj http://mulberrybagshr.co.uk hoc [url=http://beatsbydrehnhc.co.uk]Beats By Dre[/url] zxo http://beatsbydrehnhc.co.uk xkc [url=http://christianlouboutinak.co.uk]christian louboutin sale[/url] xry http://christianlouboutinak.co.uk gup [url=http://beatsbydrehfwh.co.uk]Dr Dre Beats[/url] ncs http://beatsbydrehfwh.co.uk bob
(Reply) (Thread)
From: (Anonymous)
2013-03-12 07:22 pm (UTC)

where to buy cheap louis vuitton handbags online sale?

oml [url=http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com]louis vuitton handbags[/url] szq http://www.louisvuittonoutletmvpo.com v [url=http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com]beats by dre[/url] joqc http://cheapdrdrebbeats.com yis [url=http://montblancpenab.com]mont blanc[/url] xct http://montblancpenab.com xhg [url=http://www.drdrebeatsky.com]beats by dre[/url] pdck http://www.drdrebeatsky.com jwu [url=http://christianlouboutinac.com]christian louboutin outlet[/url] seb http://christianlouboutinac.com ovo [url=http://www.beatsbydreky.com]cheap beats by dre[/url] mrrx http://www.beatsbydreky.com vujh
(Reply) (Thread)
Page 1 of 4
<<[1] [2] [3] [4] >>